Ep #10: The Bible on Debt: Is it sin, slavery, or something else?

Episode Transcript

Spencer
Welcome back. Delighted to have you here. Today, we get to dive into talking about debt. And as we think about our podcast overall, it's a sustained reflection on this concept that God owns it all. As we think about debt, if God owns everything that we have, our money, our time, our possessions, our relationships, when we are indebted to others, we have competing claims there in some ways.
And we really have to grapple with that before we take that step. Now, we'll dive into it. We're not saying that all debt is wrong and that you should never go into debt. But when we think about our governing idea, God owns it all. We really have to lay our lives before him and ask him each step of the way. If we place ourselves into a situation where we owe other people.
So will you dive in and share some statistics here of kind of where we are at culturally?

Austin
I would love to get the data nerd to come out and share the stats. I like doing this. You know, and again, we're going to dive into these hard topics. Debt is hard. But, you know, I think in the United States, we have normalized the use of debt not just on a personal level, but on a governmental level.
I was looking recently and the federal debt in the United States is currently 121% of U.S. GDP. 121%. We have more debt than we have of gross domestic product. It's pretty substantial. Household debt service payments constitute 9.6% of disposable income. Disposable income there is your income after your taxes have been taken out.
So, we're spending almost 10% of our income on debt repayment. And, you know, some people would be like, okay, that's not too bad. But it's 1/10th of our income. It's what we what we should be giving, what we should be striving to give. But it's set aside that we are obligated to pay that to somebody else.
There's no freedom in it because we have to give it back. If we don't give it back, then something bad could happen. Of that 9.6% of disposable income, currently, almost 4% of that goes to a mortgage. In about 5.6-5.7% of it is consumer debt. Think about credit card debt.
So it's pretty staggering. And then you think about how much the U.S. has out in outstanding loans. In student loans, there's $1.7 trillion of student loans outstanding right now. Consumer debt is about $930 billion. Mortgage loans are about $14 trillion. There is a substantial amount of debt that's out there currently. That is just we when we are in debt.
We are tied to that lender we have to pay back the lender. And so it's almost as if we are chained to that lender. And that's what that does, is it? Again, it's not bad. I couldn't have bought the home that we are in. That has been a tremendous blessing to myself, my family, to be in this neighborhood where we can walk to places where our friends live.
This is a tremendous gift that I couldn't have without debt. But the reality is, I still have to pay that back. That is one of the first things that I think about when we have income come in is I need to make sure that we don't move money anywhere else until that debt is satisfied.
And I think that's the challenge of debt is that it constantly pulls us and ties us back to that that debt lender.

Spencer
Even in the best of circumstances. And we think about the tradeoff between buying a home and renting a home or an apartment. And there's pros and cons either way. It can be a great step to do exactly as you and your family have done, buy a home, building equity, doing those kinds of things. But it's interesting that one of the first things that you say is it's still on a month-to-month basis one of the first things that I think about, I've got to have money to pay the mortgage. So, it does have that that power it psychologically on us as well.

Austin
So, as we think about last week, we talked about giving breaking the power of money. Prosperity has led us to greed, to covet but giving is that power that breaks money or it breaks the power that money has. Where today we're going in an almost the opposite direction. That when if giving breaks, the power of money, debt almost leashes us, chains us, to money.
And so, we're going to dive in and look a little bit more deeply of how that comes about. And kind of our main thesis here is we want to try to limit and avoid debt. Again, there are times when it's necessary. To buy a home. To buy a business. But we want to try to limit it, avoid it, and then pay it off as quickly as possible so that we're not chained into that.

Spencer
As we dive in, we've referenced Randy Alcorn book, Money, Possessions and Eternity, an excellent resource and we want to highlight some of those things that Randy suggests we think about before we move into taking on debt and surface these as kind of questions of whether this might be true of our heart in making a decision towards taking on debt or putting it on putting a charge on the credit card that we know that we can't pay.
At least not at least not that month. So that first one, he says, is this a situation where we need something more than God has given us? And that's always a temptation. I mean, we've structured our economy in such a way that we don't have to pay off something that day or that month or even that year.
It can be a simple expenditure. It can be something large. But you look at the number of credit programs that are out there and every institution seemingly has one that says you can pay this off over six months. I mean, even something that's a couple hundred dollars, you can do a payment plan of six months. And it's there's such a push by corporations to get us to spend so they can make money on us. Regardless of whether it's healthy for us.

Austin
Well, I remember hearing someone talk about one of those programs where, you know, every vendor online has it now. Buy now. Pay over the next four years or four months or whatever it is four equal payments of $25 to get that $100 thing. Well, you think about it that time, you're like, oh, yeah, I've got $25 this time.
But these people that were saying it were saying, I didn't think about the next time. So the next time I went to buy something, I said, Oh, yeah, I've got $25 now. Not thinking about the $25 they'd already committed at last debt that they'd incurred. And so they just kept snowballing this thing because the assumption was, oh, I've, I've got this little bit.
But that little bit kept growing into a big bet. And then they were overwhelmed by the debt that they'd incurred.

Spencer
Well, and it can be sneaky for us. Even sometimes we'll see folks go into a zero interest payment for a vehicle and say, well, I can pay this off over a period of time and there's no interest on it. And so it's debt. But I'm not bearing the load of the interest. But oftentimes what that can do is just give us the license to spend more upfront than we really need to be.
God doesn't know best what our needs are. You know, do I need to go into debt because maybe God doesn't know that I actually needed, you know, this trip. You know, I needed a vacation that was going to be, you know, more expensive than what I could pay for upfront. Or that I might need a vehicle again, that is beyond my means.
You know, at this point or, you know, other expenditures. Again, a difficult question, but an important one, I think.

Austin
And if you haven't found out yet, Randy has a really good way of illuminating some of these things. And as as I read them yesterday, I was like, oh, gosh, that feels challenging. So, his third one. God has failed to provide for our needs, forcing us to take matters into our own hands. I think this one is especially challenging, because if the first two weren't already challenging, But this one, it's, “Am I trusting God?”
And then that's really what it's getting back to. Am I putting my faith in my trust in my Lord? Or am I putting it into myself? And again, Americans are all about self-sufficiency. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Do it. You can do it. We have a really hard time trusting somebody else.
Which I think bleeds over into. Can I trust God to provide for my needs? If God knows my needs, he will provide for them. But this says if I have to go into debt. This debt mentality is that, well, God hasn't provided. So I've got to find I've got to take it in my own hands.

Spencer
One of the examples that I think about here, we've become so accustomed to a lifestyle that might be beyond ours. That sometimes embracing just the simplicity and seeing someone embraces simplicity can be jarring. So I remember a television program I saw a number of years ago. This was probably 20 years ago where there was a lady on there who was a penny pincher and they had brought her on to see how she said her family.
I think she had four or five kids, but she was feeding family on something like $20 a week. And the host was flabbergasted. She said, How in the world can you do that? She said, Well, we eat rice and beans four or five nights a week. And the host, again, was kind of up in arms that this could be the case.
But she said, we have everything that we need. We enjoy the meals that we have together. It's very simple in what we do. And so the host said, well, you know, if you were going to work with someone on budgeting, what would be your first question to them? And she said, well, how many nights a week are you eating rice and beans?
Because that's about as simple to keep decent nutrition and to keep those costs down. But it's just that jarring example of, you know, maybe God isn't coming through in the way that we think that He should, but He might be inviting us into a level of simplicity that could be for the benefit of our souls. It might not look good to our neighbors.
And we might be in a circumstance where we're living differently. But that could be a great opportunity to be able to lay our lives before the Lord and say God truly does own it all, even if He's not providing in quite the way that I would hope.

Austin
So the fourth one, if God doesn't come through the way we think He should, we can find another way. Pretty similar to that. That last one there. But again, I need to take the matters in my own hands because I've prayed God is doing it. I'm going to do it. Fifth, just because today's income is sufficient to make our debt payments, tomorrow's will be too.

Spencer
You know. And you think too, James, for where Jesus or where I should say James was reprimanding folks for going to one city or another and saying, well, we're going to do business here and everything is going to work out in this way or that way. He said, that's actually sin. We don't know what the future holds. We need to be very open in terms of our posture with the Lord because he may ask us to do something different. He may direct us in a different way. Our business ventures may not turn out as they as we hope.

Austin
So, the last one. Our circumstances will not change--our health will be good, we will keep our present job ,our salary will keep up with inflation, God won't direct us to another job with a lower salary or lead us to increase our giving. And again, it's that I think that everything will always get better. It's that eternal optimist saying it's always going to get better.
I will always have my job. But I think you look over 100 years of history in America, and that's not guaranteed. Your salary isn't always going to keep up with inflation. Working on staff with Christian ministries the number of times that I heard from fellow staff people on with Cru.
“God called me out of the business world and into Cru ministry.” And I can guarantee you they were not making as much money with Cru as they were in their business venture. And it's just you don't know what God's calling you to. So to bank everything on. Well, I've got it right now. So I'll have it next month.
I'll have it the month after. It again, it goes back to trusting myself and not putting my faith in God. That God could be calling me to increase my giving or change my lifestyle or pursue simplicity. But if I have debt, I can't pursue simplicity because I'm chained to that debt.

Spencer
And and we come back to there are circumstances where, you know, we lay that before the Lord, we are very patient and we do think that it can be wise. But we have to be very cognizant of the other side of the coin.

And that's one of the ways that we get into our main text today that which is the overarching theme, I think, of the conversation, Proverbs 22:7, which says, “The rich rules over the poor and the borrower is the slave of the lender.”

Austin
Debt makes us a slave to the lender. Like I was saying earlier, my mortgage payment is one of the first things that I think about every month. It's making sure it's once it's getting close to the end of the month. Do we have the money in it to cover. If not, let's pull from savings. We're trying to you know, we try to be aggressive in putting in the savings. But it's always on my mind at the end of the month. And I am a slave to that mortgage payment.

Spencer
Well, and it's funny. One of the things that struck me, just thinking back politically in the 1990s, there's a Democratic political advisor, kind of famed James Carville. He said “I used to think that if there was reincarnation, I wanted to come back as the President or the Pope or a .400 baseball hitter. But now I would like to come back as the bond market. You can intimidate everybody.”
And of course, the bond market is essentially the lenders who have lent to the borrowers. And the thing that Carville is referencing there is there were a lot of policy things that he wanted to explore, but they were completely shot down because the bond market would respond negatively. Those people who are the lenders have a tremendous influence over all of society because they say you've got to pay us back.
Number one priority. You've got to pay us back. So whether it is on a personal level or even whether we think societally the borrower is the slave to the lender there.

Austin
And, you know, I think it's it's interesting too as I think about this proverb and kind of the context of the Old Testament. And we'll talk about how God wants Israel to interact with each other. But one of the things, as I was reading just these different passages, is that when God calls us to give money to each other, to the family of faith, he explicitly says, don't charge interest to your brother and sister.
Because he knows that by doing that, you're enslaving your brother and sister in Christ. And so it's just a really challenging thing of like, well, if Spencer needs money, I need just give it to him. No strings attached. Like, I don't need to. Just like when you're in poverty. So I'm going to give you this, But I expect it back at 5%.
God knows the power that lending has. And so he wants the people of Israel to love and serve one another in such a way that is different than the economic marketplace of today, where it's constantly back and forth of, I'm going to make you my slave and you're gonna make me yours through giving and lending.
And it's just so interesting to think about that in the context of Proverbs and in the context of the Old Testament here.

Spencer
When we think about debt, sometimes it is necessary, but we want to pay it back quickly and we want to be as much at rest in the terms that we can. So if we're giving to a friend, that's a wonderful thing. If we have to set up some kind of a repayment element, could think about that. But we want to make sure that we're not enslaving our brother or sister any more than need be. We don't. Ideally, we don't want to have them feeling like they have a high interest rate. You know where it bears on their minds any more than it really needs to.

Austin
I think there's generous ways that we can be with one another and set flexible payments. I think there's ways that we cannot enslave our brothers and sisters. And still be generous with them. But again, it comes back to you. Whose resources are they?
The resources are God’s. They're always God’s. They always have been God’s. He owns it all. So if at some point He says, free the loan. Free the loan.

Spencer
Well, that's the whole principle of Jubilee. You know, from the Old Testament, it's a sense of if we recognize in a brother or sister that they have a legitimate need.
We don't need to be holding things over them, if at all possible. If we could just release it and say God owns it all, whether it's in my hands or his hands or her hands. What a beautiful thing.
So, let's talk let's pivot here and talk about another Old Testament passage. Exodus 20:17. Can you unpack context and kind of why we're going in this direction as well?

Austin
We are in the Ten Commandments. God is giving them to Israel at this time. Again, the Ten Commandments are intended as well as the law is intended to be instructive for how Israel is to be a people that reflect God to all the neighboring peoples around. So it's not just, hey, do this, don't do this, but by doing this and by not doing this, then you will show the people what God is like.
So how do you show that God is not covetous or greedy? Well, Exodus 20:17 says “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that's your neighbors.” If we are to show that God is generous and loving and kind and abundant in love.
Well, if I'm coveting, that doesn't show a kind and generous Father that's provided for me if I'm constantly wanting more. Then it doesn't show a trust in that God in the Father that loves me and is provided.

Spencer
There's no faith that's being evidenced. And this is so easy as we think about our lives as Americans and we look around at the people around us and they may have, you know, this this vacation that they're headed on or this vehicle or this home or, you know, toys or whatever it might be. It's so easy to get into that comparison game and think, okay, well, I need that, too.
I'm going to I'm going to buy that. And that can be one of those elements that leads us into debt.

Austin
You know, when we were in Indianapolis a couple weeks ago, one of the guys in this fellowship program that we're a part of right now said “Buying what you cannot afford to simply have more future trash.” He called all of our stuff future trash. And I just thought about that. And I was like, Oh, yeah, everything is future trash. And I think if I put it, put all of the stuff that I have into that context, it's all future trash.
It makes me slow down and be like, Oh, do I really need it? If I, if it's just going to enter my pocket to then go to the trash can or go to somebody else to then go to the trash can. It puts that buying into perspective and it helps be a check.

Spencer
Well, I even think about, if we don't buy it, then it can create more community because, you know, if I don't if I want to go out on the water with my kids and I don't have a paddle board, but my friend who's two blocks down the street does have one. Maybe I need to give him a call and say, could I borrow your paddleboard?
Maybe that would lead to a deeper relationship with that friend. Because usually if someone asks to borrow something from Emily and I, there's actually a joy that we can share it. Now, sometimes that runs counter in the other side of things of asking can feel uncomfortable. Because we're so committed to our individualism and not needing anything from anybody.
But this can again break down some of those barriers of relationship by just saying, hey, you know, you have really fun toys. You know, I, you know, borrow, you know, one of those toys or, you know, lawn equipment or whatever it might be that we need.

Austin
Well, and I think that it's so funny, the dissonance there that you mentioned when you and Emily lend somebody something, it gives you great joy to lend. But to ask for it produces great anxiety. And I'm the same way. It's like if someone asks for anything. Yeah. Go ahead and take it. Bring it back.
If you break it, then let's try to fix it. It's just stuff. But it gives me great joy to lend. But when I think about asking somebody for something, it's like, Oh, should I do it? It's so funny that that brain game that we play. But it is true it does create that deeper relationship when I can be with my friends and enjoy the things that they have and learn about those things. Because typically, if they have it, they enjoy it and they're passionate about it. And so they can teach me about it and about how to use it and how to really enjoy it.
Whereas if I just go on Amazon and buy one for myself, I may not use it because I may get frustrated with it.

Spencer
I might use it one time and say that's not for me. Or may use it very sparingly. But I think as we as we come back to kind of drawing the episode together, I have those similar thoughts, even as I think about buying the business from my father a few years ago. I have the best lender one could have.
You know, my father, great relationship with him. We have terms in terms of how I pay him off for buying the business. You know, I didn't have the funds to buy the business at the time. And so paying him off over a seven or eight year period, I have an incredible relationship with him again. There's no desire that he would have to be holding this over me. And yet it's still something that's on my mind.
Every quarter when I make that payment, it's on my mind. And I know that I'll have much more just psychological freedom once we get to the end of that. I'll have paid him off. I'll have been the faithful son, so to speak. And even if everything, you know, went terrible and it wasn't able to pay off the last few payments, I don't think it would impact our relationship much. Yet, because it's debt there's still a power over me of that.
And as we think about what our governing theme, again, God owns it all. Even the best debt. Even the debt that you know, there's no way I was going to be able to buy the business. I have an incredible lender. It still presents a competing interests there, even if it's just psychologically.

Austin
All right. So to close this off, thanks for sharing about your dad, Spencer. Yeah. In that loan. And it's really helpful to think about Dad in that regard and how it still can keep us in slavery. But it provides some opportunities. Yeah. So you get two quotes. I'll start off with the one from Thomas a Kempis, he says, “Let temporal things serve your use. But the eternal be the object of your desire.”

Spencer
So good to think really about the eternal purpose and whether these decisions that we make that might contribute to debt, whether they serve that purpose. Second one that we really like, Alexsander Solzhenitsyn, “We always paid dearly for chasing after what is cheap.” And so often the toys that we pursue, the things that we're pursue in our time here can tend to be very cheap, particularly if we're financing them with debt. But we pay dearly for them over time.
So we will wrap this part up. Again, thanks for joining us. We get into the really exciting topic of taxes next time. So, we’ll be diving into what we think is a biblical approach to the way that we think about taxes and paying taxes. So until then, I hope you have a great couple of weeks and we'll check in then. Take care.