Ep. 040 - Nurturing Relationships: Insights from Psychologist Dr. Brian Humphreys

Episode Transcript

Spencer
Welcome to the second half Stewardship Podcast. We believe that God owns it all and our response as Christians is to live generous lives. I'm Spencer Hall, a certified financial planner.


Austin
And I am Austin McLaughlin. As former full time missionaries in the United States and oversees Spencer and I approach managing our personal finances through the lens of biblical stewardship.


Spencer
Journey with us as we explore how to be generous stewards of our money, time, relationships, gifts and experiences. Welcome to our second half Stewardship podcast today. We're really excited to have a longtime friend, client and spouse of one of our teammates, Brian Humphreys, with us. Brian is a psychologist in private practice and just has a tremendous amount of wisdom about how we steward relationships, how we work well together among families, among friends, how we navigate through dicey times as well.


Spencer
And so really excited to have him. If you don't know, he is been married to Vicki, one of our teammates who has been with us at the firm for eight or nine years now.


Brian
2016.


Spencer
Okay. So eight years now and has just been a delight to work with over the years. And so Brian is also one of our favorite people now in our household, simply because he let us have tickets to a Broadway show and couldn't get out. It was buried in snow. And so our daughters and my wife got to be able to go down to the show.


Spencer
And so he is one of those heroes, at least for the last couple of weeks in our house. So really excited to have him be able to come on and share some wisdom, particularly about relationships as we think about, you know, God owns it all and and we are stewards of what he's given us. You know, we think about, of course, our talents, our time, our treasure would be one way to think through things.


Spencer
But we also think about the relationships and the experiences that he's given us as one of those key things that we steward. And so, you know, for most of us, we would, I think, have a mental ascent at least that those relationships are core parts of our life and critical. And yet sometimes we don't do the best job of stewarding those and really seeing ourselves as stewards.


Spencer
So we're excited to dive in to those pieces today. But if we take a little bit of a step to the side and get to know you, just for those folks who maybe they haven't spent any time with you or Vicki and such, can you kind of give us background, Brian, on key things in life as you sit right now, family and kind of what you're engaged in and those passions that you have?


Brian
Sure. Yeah. Good to be here. I grew up in West Virginia, in Illinois. When married Vicki in 1983, we moved to Southern California so I could attend Biola University, where I got a masters and doctorate in clinical psychology. Moved to Knoxville, 1989 to do an internship at the UT Student Counseling Center. And then our first job, I was born in November of 98 and in March of 91 I opened my private practice in West Knoxville, and in 1995 I joined a practice not too far from here in Bearden.


Brian
They've been there ever since then, and we have three children, Mitch and Emma. We have Evan and we have Brandon, and all three of our children are married. We have a granddaughter, Rosemary, and so we're real excited about that. She's about three months old and yeah, I love what I do. I go to Christ Chapel, which is near the UT campus.


Brian
I've served as an elder there, which allowed me to preach. So I've had that experience, which is really good, and I love being a part of the Christian community here and people seek my services quite often because I know I work from a Christian worldview that means a lot to them. And so, yeah, I talk a lot about walking with Jesus, with my clients, and a lot about what it means to love and live like him, especially in the key relationships of family, friends, people that are church, community, neighbors.


Brian
So yeah, kind of who I am. Great.


Spencer
Great.


Austin
So, Brian, one of the things that I have recognized and working with over here, over the last couple of years is just how intentional you guys are with your kids. It is something that, you know, we have kids that are elementary school aged and I look at y'all and think, okay, when they're ten years old or 15 years older, the intentionality of the I'll take that.


Austin
Each one of your kids wants to talk with you on the phone and not just for like a five minute capture. You've developed these really deep relationships or what it seems like to us deep relationships. What are some things that y'all did when they were growing up as they were in high school, as they got to college, like throughout those their seasons of life?


Austin
How did you develop that?


Brian
That's a great question, and I deal with that all week long. And talking with parents, I maybe your viewers will have heard something called attachment theory. It's caught on a lot. It's a research based. It's some, in my opinion, totally congruent with scripture. And that is we talk about the four S’s that children need to feel safe and body, soul, mind and spirit, that they can share the thoughts and feelings they have and not fear retribution or shaming.


Brian
How do you think that or say that? Obviously you set limits on how they can express themselves. And I remember our children in their very young telling them, You can tell me anything you want, share any thought or feeling with me. You can tell me you're mad at me that I hurt you. You know, like my decisions. I said, I will listen to you.


Brian
I will not be mad at you just because you're mad at me or don't like what it did. Not hear you out doesn't always mean they get what they want. You know, Twinkies for dinner or or to play outside 10:00 when you're five years old. But it means they won't be shamed or guilt tripped or mocked or ridiculed because they wanted to.


Brian
And so to feel safe. And then from there, we all need to be, especially children, to be seen. I see means literally the eyes. It's also hear heard, but it's also the eyes of the heart, of the ears of the heart. We you try to get you see them, you see the outward behavior. You perceive they're mad about something, but you try to do what psychologists call have mine sight, which is a term.


Brian
Daniel Siegel, the great researcher at UCLA, came up with, where you try to look beneath behavior and wonder what's going on in her that you just hit her younger brother. it's his birthday party. No one's paying attention to her. She's feeling left out. So instead of say, what are you doing here? You're hitting your brother. You say you take her to the side.


Brian
It's not okay to hurt people, but I'm guessing that maybe you're feeling left out. You try to go beneath the behavior and see what might be going on in her mind, in her soul. And then from there, you seek to soothe me to just, you know, your tone of voice nonverbals are very important. You know, the words you say to empathy, holding, maybe rubbing their back, whatever the case is.


Brian
And then you do that over time and you build a psychologist, call a secure base, which gets into launching something that's really important in a conversation. You want the challenge to launch feeling they have a secure base, which means two things. One, they know they can literally call, come home, whatever need be, but also it's more they carry you inside of them.


Brian
I remember one of my children starting college in the first day of school. They said to me, I'm very confident that I know it's going to be a good experience here because I know wherever I go, I take you with me. And that was both of you literally could come home, but also I was in that child's heart.


Brian
And I think that's what we're shooting for. And so that dovetails wonderfully with our our faith, the Holy Spirit, and tells us, you know, we have the confidence that Jesus says, I'll never leave you, forsake you. And and so there's that sense of we want our kids to know that it's safe to be who they are and that they're not going to be rejected just because they say something that is off putting or hurtful or whatever.


Brian
And so I think that's the on going stance. That's a big picture. That is a meta position or backdrop for everything that happens. You mentioned the Broadway musical. Everything that happens on the stage is in that context. So I'll start with that comment. Yeah, you can ask me follow up questions if.


Spencer
You are right. Yeah. So we have safe scene.


Brian
Sooth and secure. Secure, secure.

Spencer
Yeah, Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Brian
Safe. Because safe Haven technically means secure base. Excuse the jargon. I see it all the time. But here's the thing. We never really lose that. It's foundational. But that applies to someone who's 95 years old in a nursing home. That applies to you and me. When we're in pain, we want to know. We can go to someone.


Brian
A spouse, a friend, each other, and feel safe to be who we are, to be seen literally. But also, you know, the eyes of the heart. And then to be soothed. You want to talk about it, you're touching the arm, a hug or a pat on the back or just soothing expressions and words in that. And then the secure base part's a little bit different for adults, but it's more like, I know I can keep coming back to you.


Brian
I know I have a place to go. And so it never really changes. And that's what our savior does all the time. I mean, you're safe to be who you are with me, and I can reject you. You know, I will talk to you and address you of your sins, but address your sins. But I'm not going to cast you off.


Brian
And the Holy Spirit will see this needed does only take away our problems. You work so much as people who are in great pain and suffering. And I worked with a woman. I work with a woman just put down her beloved dog and I've been through it with my cats and super sad. And in and she was able to reach out to not only me but some key friends to two people went with her and you helped soothe her and yeah so.


Spencer
Well and we had to put down our beloved dog.


Brian
And That's right. That's right.


Spencer
I don't know that I've ever cried so much in one hour, you know?


Brian
Is that I forgot about that. Yeah.


Spencer
So it but that that soothing so you know as you think about engaging kids you know and along the way helping them with these just rhythms and engagement what does it look like we have a lot of clients who of course are parents and they're walking through this with their kids as they get older. But we also have a lot of grandparents or even great grandparents, right, As you see grandparents and great grandparents engage with with kids as they grow and mature.


Spencer
Anything that you would say that maybe shifts or that maybe is is a greater point of emphasis as we think about these four S's. You know, obviously, they're they're not typically under the roof, you know, other than maybe for a few days at a time or a week at a time or whatever it might be. And kind of spelling the parents.

Spencer
There are grandparents, of course, that that raise their kids grandkids. But, you know, as you kind of think about a typical maybe grandparent engagement, you know, with a child, anything that you would be able to impart to us as we think about that.


Brian
And so someone like. Steve Hall. Yeah.


Spencer
Yeah, yeah, for sure.


Brian
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, but my colleagues whose grandparent has multiple grandchildren, said recently the great thing about being a grandparent is you you can love the kids without the anxiety. What she meant specifically is I've done having to raise them directly. Yeah. You know, it's up to me to make sure everything goes right with school and everything else.


Brian
I'm an ally, but not the main caregiver. So it's a stereotype to be the fun one. Let me take you to Brewster and things like that. I think what came to mind when you asked that question is wisdom, and that's one thing I love to talk about with clients and therapy, especially my Christian clients are exposed to the wisdom, which is your scripture and know Book of Proverbs and the other wisdom books that I think grandparents, because of longevity, oftentimes have a wisdom to offer that their parents don't have yet because their parents have lived long enough.


Brian
And and so I think wisdom is something that just because you age, you don't actually get that. I think you can have it at a young age too much because it does take time. And so I think what grandparents can do is oftentimes their experience as a safe haven for the children because they're not the one doing all the disciplining and, you know, and gosh, Grandpa, you know, I'm feeling kind of neglected in the family because mommy and daddy spend so much time with, you know, Sally's ballet lessons or Billy's piano lessons, whatever, and and they can they can listen to me in a way that's not that wouldn't undermine the parents, but would hopefully draw

Brian
the child out and say, maybe it'd be good to talk to Mommy about that tonight when I drop you off. And it sounds like, you know, that would be a good conversation. House They can come along to support the parents that way, not override the parent. I can't believe your mother did that. I would have never said no to you on that one.


Brian
But to say it sounds like you need to talk to Mommy about that and ask her more why she did it, and then we can get a heads up and call the mother and say, Hey, Jane wants to talk about this. And here's what I said to her. I didn't understand what you did, but I think she's going to say something to you tonight.


Brian
And so, yeah, that comes to mind. And certainly going to soccer games and piano recitals and other events to cheer them on and that's pretty much a given. So I'm sure. Sure.


Spencer
So it sounds like even there's a role that is, you know, when there's friction, you know, that arise as in any parent child relationship, they can almost be peacemaker. You know, it's they're they have their antennas up yet and no one can listen well yeah and and navigate that relationship well yeah. But also bring a level of maybe deeper understanding, you know.


Brian
Exactly. You said it very well and never undermining the parents. Sure. You know, and Vicki will have a chance to do that in the years ahead because we just became grandparents. So now I want to listen to my own advice. And hopefully if my kids watch this video, they'll say, hey, remember what you said. That's a really undermine just crap.


Brian
It’s on video.


Brian
I can't imagine it. Yeah.


Spencer
Yeah, yeah. Well, they can hold your feet. I know. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Good.


Austin
So. So, Brian, one of the things that I think we're you've kind of alluded to in some ways is that there's a presence that you have to have people. Yes. Yes. And I think that's one thing that you're really good at. You're remarkably present in the moment when we've been interacting before it. There's not like was looking away to see, okay, what do I need to be doing?


Austin
That's there's a constant presence. How how did you develop that through your life?


Brian
Wow. That's a great question. I'm sorry I wasn't paying attention to you. Well, I think it goes back to why I'm a therapist. I see, as a Christian, the use of terminology has been around for millennia that I'm. I'm involved in soul care. And I, I knew at some point that God was calling me. I didn't know the term back then, but what I would now call soul care, I think that could mean in theory, I could've been a chaplain, a priest, my father Aaron, a pastor, a, you know, social worker or therapist.


Brian
You know, in some ways maybe a school counselor. There are a lot of jobs that could have had, could have had. But my vocation near the vocare the calling out that we talk so much about, I know to be soul care. And and I think my brother was a school counselor and I was fascinated by the psychology books he read.


Brian
And then in high school, if you look at my high school yearbook, you'd think, is this a school counselor? You know, it'd be like, Thanks for help me work that break up. I never could do it without you. You were always there listening or whatever, you know, It's like, okay, this is a psychologist in the making. So I knew at that point I wanted to be a psychologist.


Brian
So I declared. Psychology major in the fall of 1979 at Marshall University in West Virginia and never changed my major. And so that's the backdrop to being present. What I've learned over the years is from wiser people than I am, both in terms of reading and have been present to me is I think being present is that I don't have an agenda in the moment other than to be with you until I would say be lovingly engaged and listen to you.

0
Brian
And the term I like that people use a lot in the literature is to be, excuse me, actively receptive. It's kind of a receiving. It's not passive it, but it's it's more like your Sigmund Freud called it called it evenly hovering attention when he did therapy where you just kind of sit in you, you're just going to listen and see where things land.


Brian
And I think for me it's more, I don't want to manage you. I want to be with you. I want to listen with to your spirit, as it were, with my spirit and my heart, my mind, and and just perceive you. And to do that, I have to sort of clear my mind of any thought of changing you or fixing or even correcting you.


Brian
And so but if I have to follow one, those lines, I'm really big on ask permission. So if you said to them, I'd say, Now I'll start some thoughts about that. Are you interested? That's a common thing. I say. I just don't jump in and say, Well, here's what you need to do or whatever that's being agenda driven.


Brian
And so I think it's value in the image of God in you and know that I'm not your God. I'm not I'm not God. I'm not here to fix you or save you. I'm here to walk alongside of you asking when I know, especially my church from my sermons. My motto in life is Life is a way of being with with God and with each other.


Brian
And so I think I just focus on being lovingly engaged and hope answers your question.


Austin
Yeah, well, I think it touches on God has given you natural gifts like he has blessed you to like like you were saying in high school, you were that person that was caring for others and that came through naturally. And then you allowed God to develop those gifts in you. So you were both present to the fact that he is giving you some natural talent.


Austin
Yeah, but then you didn't stop there. Yes. You develop that to a retirement. Yeah. Learning and growing. Developing.


Brian
Yes.


Austin
I think that's a that's a key tension that we maybe sometimes forget is that just because God has given me a talent, doesn’t mean that I have nurtured that talent. Amen. So when we think about ways to nurture talents, ways to develop and do that with God in the process, what are things that you walk through people in ways that you guide them to be open to God as He's leading and guiding their natural gifts and talents?


Brian
Yeah, And here and barring the thoughts or was there people that over the years, things you've probably heard over the years in your work and just living life. I always tell people, a lot of times people say, I don't know what my gifts and talents are or my passions or whatever. You know, we say a couple of things.


Brian
What do people say to you? What kind of feedback did your friends and family give to you? you're really good at problem solving. You really get it, you know, You know, in analyzing and come up with solutions or you're really good at being present with people in a safe way and you're really good at building, fixing things.


Brian
And it's so listen, what people have told you over the years, like, gosh, I hear that a lot. You know, sometimes people say to Vicki, if they've talked with me, Brian is easy to talk to or something. I guess that's because he's a psychologist. And Vicki say, no, you have it backwards. I've known Brian since junior high school.


Brian
He became a psychologist because he was like that or something like that. So I think, you know, this is the feedback from others. I'm really big on the specimen tests, you know, give spiritual gifts, personality tests, the Myers-Briggs and your enneagram is really big right now. It seems like every other client says I'm a three of the enneagram.


Brian
So what do you expect? Or I know I’m a jerk, but I'm eight on the enneagram. So what you expect. Okay, so here you get all these tests you can take that I think help. I think consulting wise, are people in your church community, elders, pastors, older men and women and say, what do you see in me? The other one, I think is and you probably hear this a lot, is I ask people, when do you feel what people say?


Brian
What do you feel most alive? That's a good question. What I like to say is, when do you feel the most You think it's really important to say, you know, some people call flow. That's a research term. When do you feel like, you know, this is why God put me here, which is an overstatement. It puts us here for many reasons, but it's a sort of a Christian idiom.


Brian
We have. I think God put me here, too, you know, whatever. But it's it's When do you feel the most you is just like, yeah, this is really who I am. Is it leading people? Is it creating music? Is it sitting in a room with people who are in pain and suffering? Is that problem solving and bringing solutions that really help your community or humankind or whatever the case is?


Brian
And you go, Yeah, that's that's me. I feel like it's really me. And and I know for me I feel I'm so blessed I get to make a living out of what feels like the real me. And if I don't play the lottery, but if I play the lottery to win $1,000,000, I still want to be with people in a room and talking about doing so, I guess for free.


Brian
Or I have a life bill so I have to charge and and but I feel the most me when I'm sitting with people who are willing to open their soul in interest. And oftentimes it very painful things and they allow me to be with them, be it Vicki, be the kids, be it my clients, be it family, friends is.


Brian
So I think I would just ask people, when do you really feel the most, you.


Spencer
Know, it's a sense of, you know, your little, you know, Chariots of Fire. You know, when I run, I feel his pleasure.


Brian
Exactly.


Spencer
Exactly. There's that sense of the Holy Spirit sometimes giving that that life, that energy that is truly you.


Brian
Yeah.


Spencer
Because you could see from the film and if you read his biography, you could see that he does get real life, you know, in preaching. And he, you know, is a missionary to China after he runs in those kinds of things. But there is a real sense that he feels like God has given him that role as well.


Brian
Absolutely.


Spencer
So that's that's fun to see in people when they do come alive, because it's it's them know.


Brian
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve heard this metaphor, I don’t know where I got it. God is is like a diamond with an infinite number of facets. And every human being is creating the image of the diamond but is giving a different facet. I really like that imagery. I mean, all analogies for God breakdowns are limited, but I think it's a decent.


Brian
I think it's a decent one in that it points to we're all creating the Imago Dei, but uniquely obviously genetics is a starting point. Then from there, Spirit gifting life experiences and such. So I always try to celebrate my clients. One thing I regularly say to my clients is to our Christian clients. I say very explicitly early on, as long as we meet together, I want to be used by God to help you become more like Jesus in an Austin kind of way, in a Spencer kind of way, not in a Tim Keller kind of way, or Billy Graham or Beth Moore or Brian Humphreys.


Brian
Sure. Or, you know, whoever does. But in a Spenser kind of way, people kind of must be having heard that, they kind of go, And yeah, there's a thought I really have to share at some point if you don't ask me. Well, it's not necessarily this part, but I'm sure hoping will come up because it dovetails with your whole your whole thing.


Brian
Yeah. Yeah.


Spencer
Well, and, you know, I think that's the danger that we would find if we're all trying to be like a certain person. That kind of trends towards you know, a cult.


Brian
Yes.


Spencer
In many ways is, you know, you end up trying to emulate, you know, this really brilliant person or this really winsome person or this really driven person. And, you know, each of us brings something different. And what God has put in us and some of us, you know, do great in being able to draw people into rest. But that tends to not be the hard chargers, the drivers, you know, But each brings something important.


Spencer
You know, if you look at the Apostle Paul, for instance, he doesn't strike me as one that, you know, ever, you know, took too much rest. And maybe he's on the side of, you know, always wanting to be out there, always wanting to show the gospel. But but we also needed then church fathers who would be more like, you know, Jesus brother James, who was always praying and, you know, much more reflective, meditative and much more of a listener in the early church counsels, you know, of being able to, you know, give insight and input, but not always out there, you know, on the new horizon or frontier.


Austin
You know, if he found this episode valuable, share with a friend and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so that you don't miss the next episode.


Disclosure
This content was provided by second hand stewardship. We are in Knoxville, Tennessee, and you can visit our website at www.secondhalfstewardship.com. The information in this recording is intended for general educational and informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advisory, financial planning, legal tax or other professional advice based on your specific situation, please consult your professional advisor before taking any action based on its contents.