Ep. 058 - Navigating Calling, Vocation, and Purpose in Every Season with Jeff Haanen

Episode Transcript

Austin
Well, welcome back to Second Half Stewardship. Again we are talking today with Jeff Haanen. If you missed the last episode where we talked about identity and rest and sabbatical, it's really a beautiful conversation. We would love for you to go back and listen to it. Today we want to pick up and talk about this idea of calling and vocation. So, Jeff, as we think about calling vocation and really discerning where God is leading, what are some crucial things that people need to really wrestle with as we think about calling, whether it's in the midst of work, as we pursue retirement, as we're in retirement, how do we pursue a vocation alongside Jesus?

Jeff
Yeah, it's a good question. And calling is itself a very big topic. We've been thinking about this one for a long time, so I'll just go over a few different ideas on that. But I think there's a couple of ideas of maybe myths that we need to name with respect to calling. So calling is not just I do what I love like Jeremiah, Paul, Isaiah, Moses like they did,
They were called by God, but they didn't just do what they loved. Like that's a very much of an American sort of a framework God calls people to himself. But that may mean just as much suffering as good times. So there's a little warning there in calling because we can hear like, oh, that would be my real calling if I just had that perfect life over there.
Like, “nahhhh, that didn’t come from the Bible? Right? It doesn't necessarily mean my ideal job either. Though I do think calling can mean some sort of a mix of how the Lord has made you with what you actually do with your life. And then calling is not only life stage. Often times calling questions are happening now with 20 year olds thinking, I graduated from college, what's my calling?
What should I do right? I do think there is an importance of talking about calling over a lifetime. Yeah, and particularly in either mid career or late career or end of career in the retirement of asking sort of what is the Lord calling me to. So those are just a handful of, overview ideas. But I think calling really needs to be just this:
It's a whole life lived in response to God's voice. So I say that word “Voice” because that's where the root of that is, the same root of the word vocation, vocation and calling are, the same word. Essentially, when as a Greek, Greek one is a lot. But it really is an entire life lived in response to God's voice.
And I think the highest vision is calling us to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love our neighbor as herself. Like these are, there are universal and common aspects of calling that we share with all believers, because God has called us to live in that kingdom. So I think that's the first thing we need to hear it before, why specific aspect of it.
But there are some interesting biblical passages, boy, “He has created you to do good works, which He has laid in advance for you to do or prepared in advance for you to do.” Ephesians 2:10. So there are these little hints in the Bible of God has things laid out for you, but those are always, I would say, subverted to the voice of the caller rather than the call.
So it's not like to do this thing over here and not this thing. You're totally going to miss out. Actually, God is always available to you through His Spirit. Like you can always be in relationship with him. Whether you choose to work in the nonprofit sector or in private equities. I mean either one, God can. God will walk alongside you if you want.
if you want to walk alongside of him. So there are some aspects of those specific calling that I do think God is calling us to and that we can over time, ask ourselves some questions about what does that voice sound like right now and then what does it mean practically for how I spend my days in my time, whether that be paid or unpaid work?
I do think there are important questions we can ask, and then we'll get to those as well.


Austin
Yeah. No, that's that's really good. I think even just as a framework of thinking that my first calling is to listen to the Lord. And I think if we come back to several of these topics that we've talked about over the course of this podcast, it's are my hands open and my ears open to listen to the Lord, or am I more closed fisted and say, “Well, this is my job.”?
So therefore it must be my calling and I think to have those both intention of saying, well, yeah, maybe God placed me here, but the caller is always more important. I think that's such a tremendous piece. So yeah, let's dive in a little bit more to this idea of calling vocation and listening to the Lord. And I think, let's dive in.
Maybe more specifically, as we are approaching retirement, because I think that transitional peace is often really crucial for our clients to then think, okay, I'm exiting a season of long work. How do I now move into something that's totally new? What are the questions that I need to be asking? So are there are things that, as we approach the season of retirement, as we approach later in life, or maybe not have as much energy or family is more important, or caring for kids and parents, what are some of those things that help us understand maybe where God is leading and calling?


Jeff
Yeah, well, I think there's a few aspects of that one. I had a friend and I interviewed him for the book. His name was Fred, and he said retirement was like fly fishing. He says, now when I catch a fish, I don't need to keep them. I delight in releasing. It's a catch and release. This is what retirement means for me.
And what he meant by that is there is a good there's a time of accumulating. There's a time of maybe stacking up awards, when there's a time when that just matters less. And almost everybody I talked to in their 60s, they just don't care about that stuff. It's just that was fine for a season, but it's not as important.
So I think retirement broadly is the season of wisdom and blessing. There is aspects of letting go. There's aspects of letting go. Not all work, but particular kinds of work, like being the big driver, being the leader, doing the heavy lifting of work. And I do think this concept of wisdom blessing is pretty consistent in the Bible.
The patriarchs, for instance, would bless the next generation, speak almost prophetic words over them. And when I see people do retirement well, they think I do have work to do. There are things, but they find a particular delight in affirming and challenging, potentially mentoring and caring for another generation. So I do think there are some seasonal aspects that we could say, generally speaking, in retirement, there is a letting go, but then there also is a taking up.
And that taking up oftentimes is relational, between somebody older and somebody younger. And I would also say that word, elder that we've talked about in the last episode. Gosh, it was assumed that that was connected to wisdom and character and leadership ability. Right? This assumed fruit of experience and age. And so when I think of that word, elder, there is a real opportunity for people to not just retreat into retirement communities, but to reengage as people that have been around the block a few times that do have wisdom, and they're quick to listen and they're quick to care for and the quick to affirm, another generation as well.
So I do think both of those, the wisdom and blessing piece and the elder piece are key sort of commonalities in the Bible of what we might call a season of retirement.
Yeah, no, that's good. And I noticed in the book that you talked about this idea of intergenerational friendship, as opposed to an idea of mentoring. So can you talk us through maybe what's the difference? What are some similarities? Because that was something that resonated with Spencer and I as we read it, is this idea of, okay, mentoring can come with maybe some nuance that is challenging.
So talk us through that idea of intergenerational friendship. Maybe.
Yeah. So the mentoring conversation, it's a good one, but it can be challenging. And the challenge is you sit down, you have coffee once a month. The older person speaks to the younger person. The younger person gets filled up, the older person goes away, and everybody's supposed to be sort of done right of like, “I did what I was supposed to do.
I learned what I supposed to do now, when can I not do mentoring anymore?” Now, that's maybe an unfortunate sort of parody of mentoring, but there can be sort of this mono-directional transfer, sort of a vision of mentoring, where I think that's in some ways it makes sense in Greek mythology where the word comes from. But I think it makes a little sense, a little less sense in sort of Christian context where we're both disciples of Jesus, we're both continually learning from one another and learning from Christ.
And so what I wrote about is this idea of intergenerational friendship is that I think really, really effective mentors. Boy, they are very excited to learn from and to be with and to develop a friendship with somebody from another generation, like genuine friendship, rather than sort of a critical look at like, “Why are they on TikTok or whatever?”
Like there is some interesting things about, other generations and frankly, the other way too. If you look at people in their 60s and 70s and think they're irrelevant, you're not. It's, a very impoverished imagination. You'd have, I would say. And so I do really think, what is friendship? It is. C.S. Lewis says it's two people, shoulder to shoulder, looking out at something together.
And so it could be two engineers, one with more experience and with less experience, that go on a retreat together. Right? It could be lots of different context, but there is real reciprocity and there's real mutuality in it. And when those friendships happen, it's pretty interesting. I've seen this several times, actually. A friend of mine, he's only late 40s, but he was interested in learning from the new employees at his company, his early 20s, and says, why you're so smart at this?
Tell me how this works. They're analysts in a in a small company. Immediately their hearts were open to this person thinks I'm smart. They're doing something great. So that younger person, the next time you think they were open to hearing the word from the elder right in the company. Yeah, they really were. But that requires genuine humility and openness.
So I do think that developing friendships with people that are coming from, could come from another ethnicity, a different cultural background, different generation that can be potentially fruitful. If you can get past some of the just awkwardness and difficulty of people that see the world a little differently than you do.


Spencer
That's so powerful. And I love especially how you phrased it, you know, common view being young people need your advice as an elder, but the uncommon being young people want to hear more about your mistakes than your successes. Yeah. You know, we, Austin and I both have, adopted sons, and we got together with another family from church that, you know, probably 15 years older, and their son is, in his 20s now.
And we could just sit and listen, you know, to the way that they work through life over time and a lot of mistakes and some successes, and we could look and we could point and we could say, oh, they're still engaged in a great relationship with their son. There's ups and downs. Anytime you go through, you know, adoption and there's trauma in the background and different things.
You know, these kids have been through a lot. But, it was just so hopeful for us. But it was more the mistakes that we heard and we can see them still standing. And so I love that you highlight here, you know, for us, whether we're thinking about mentoring someone, you know, younger or having that intergenerational relationship younger or older, that so often it's the mistakes.
It's the reality. You know, if we're willing to be vulnerable, that can be so powerful.


Jeff
Yeah. Yeah, I think that opens up. Thanks for mentioning that. I think it opens up the heart to learning. So when I talk to my kids about, you know, the ways daddy's blown it, I get very quick listeners. If I, if I tell them you need to pick up your room again, I, I don't think they hear me at all, actually, no matter how many times I say it, right?
But it is kind of interesting of like, oh, let me tell you, you know, let me listen a little bit more about that, but that sort of opens the heart to even then when I share them with my kids, “I blew this.” I was reflective, and I was thinking about how I might grow the next time. Isn't that kind of what I want for my kids?
Rather than just telling them what to do, we kind of want them to experience things, reflect that, and grow the next time. I guess I can just try that more myself. So yeah, I think that's an important aspect of mentoring. I guess we could call it.


Spencer
Yeah. Well, and I just even think one other quick example, you know, I coached my son's high school basketball team and, we got to the end of the season. We're in this tournament and, we're down by two. And I dropped this play, and the guys didn't get it. They ran it wrong and we lost the game.
But I had never I never had so many eyes on me, so much interest in me. After the game when I said, guys, that's on me, I blew it. I've got to do a better job, you know of it. Like the gravitas and just the relationship I could see in the eyes goes so much deeper of, like, hey, coach is owning this.
He's taking this, you know, on himself. It just, it's not an easy point to come to for a lot of us, especially in kind of those, tense moments. But, yeah, it's so powerful.

Jeff
Yeah. And to our conversation of retirement, too, with additional time, there can be lots of opportunities to develop real friendships, right? With your kids and maybe babysitting, which I'm sure a lot of grandparents do, right? But also with people at your church or in your community, you do have that opportunity to develop friendship and to care for and to listen well to other people.
It could be if you decide to make that a part of your vocation, that could be a beautiful aspect of the way that you give in the next season, rather than thinking about what's my next entertainment thing, you think about “Who's in my life that I can listen to and care for and support?” Now we're getting closer to a biblical view every time.
Yeah. Well, what I love about that so much is it blows up this fractured view of community where, okay, we have elders over here. They maybe have moved into a retirement community, and we've got the younger families over here and they, they kind of all gather together. It's really in that sense, you have to have a multigenerational, actual community of believers where there's interaction across generations interactions across lines of people that isn't just, okay, all of my working professionals are in this silo.
All of my elders are in this silo. I love that idea because it seems like it produces maybe more of a biblical view of what a community should look like. Has that been something you've seen when you've seen inter-generational friendship well?
Yeah...ha, I just as a thought, I would love to see more of that. A part of the research that I did in the book, I found what do generally speaking, when people retire, how do they usually spend their additional time? And there are two activities that dominate. One is watching television or screens and the other one is home maintenance.
So, I say that because to do that in a church setting it takes you have to be a little weird. So you're not going to, you're not going to live in this particular area where things will be easier for you., and everybody does see the world, but you're going to live in, maybe a starter home neighborhood and get to know folks.
Right? And you're going to be the one to have the barbecues over to your place, because these young families are tired and would really appreciate a Sunday night to put their feet up, right? It just it requires a little bit of contrarian thinking to do this intergenerational friendship, the mentoring real well. And, I think it's the same in the church as well.
So if you're going to volunteer or the youth group, be fascinated and interested and care for people and think they're amazing and blessed and affirm before you criticize the belly shirts or whatever, sorry, I got daughters. So I've criticized these way too many times. I'm like, I actually have to go through the process of really seeing what's good in people before I think I have even permission to say things where they can grow as well.
So I just wanted to mention that too, because there is sort of the world as it exists with kind of retirement communities, and then there are contrarian decisions we can make. I just, I don't see as much as I'd like to.


Austin
Yeah. Go ahead. Spencer.


Spencer
I was just going to say, you know, the respect, you know, that you have for someone that will get down with toddlers. You know who I still remember seeing one of our friends who was in the 70s, you know, sign up for, you know, helping out with two and three year olds. But my view, my esteem of him, jumped dramatically.
You know, just watching him at church go through that once a month, just get down on the floor, you know, with the kids and engage them, play with them, you know, give moms and dads, you know, a season off. But that's, really resonated, you know, in what you're saying and just getting involved and rolling up your sleeves.


Jeff
Yeah. There's even some neurobiology there that is pretty interesting is that young kids, they don't need a fast talker that's going to tell them a bunch of things to do, like, which is what I sometimes do. It's pretty interesting that they need slow, patient, caring, clear. Elders are very well positioned to do that, even as you slow down, like you're going to slow down and try to be able to offer that to young kids.
There's, I think, something almost designed there that ought to be as we age and young children, I think they kind of belong together, actually.


Austin
Yeah, yeah, yeah.


Jeff
One just now waking up in the middle of night. That's two that. No grandparents want that anymore. That's nice thing about being a grandparent.


Austin
Yeah. What even is your saying that it kind of hearkens back to something you mentioned in the last episode that we did, but this idea of part of sabbatical, part of entering this place of rest, is so that we know where to reengage. And I think if we just take the cultural train of a never ending vacation or the retirement community or whatever it is that we don't ever ask the question of, “Lord, where do you want me to reengage?”
And I think that's such a beautiful piece. So talk a little bit more about that re-engagement. Whether it's again, mentoring or any of these other facets, I would just love to hear you talk maybe on re-engagement.

Jeff
Yeah. What people that looks differently for lots of different people, I'll say that. So vocation is a big word, and it does not necessarily mean full time employment at a company. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that. It could mean some sort of this vision of committed service that constrains you. And so, for instance, I've, heard this from several folks, like, I don't want to commit to that because I want to have my options open.
And I always had to have that. But there's like the most important things in your life are your commitments, right? My commitment to my wife, my commitment to my kid, those are going any way. And they're how I organize my life. So if you want to have meaningful work later in life, make commitments that constrain your travel or say, there are things I can't do right now, I'll say that that could be a full time work.
It could be completely volunteering, it could be part time. It could be sitting alongside somebody is there dying of cancer. It could be caring for grandkids. It could be lots of stuff. Depending on where the Lord is leading. But in the book, I have a handful of questions that I walk through that people could consider, as are thinking about how they want to engage with practical questions like what captures your imagination still today?
Who are you? Like? What kind of work experience or networks or skills do you have to contribute? What's your stage of life? Be realistic about what you can do and what you can't do. What are your circumstances as could be, financial or otherwise, right? And this is an interesting one that I got this from a guy named Gordon Smith.
He wrote a book called Courage and Calling. He says, what is the cross you have been called to bear? So are you...we're not only called, I think, to lead with our triumphs, but also with our pains and difficulties. And I do think if the cross is true, if this is the center point of the Christian life, there's something about pain and suffering that is the center of redemption.
And I'm I think it's probably the same for our lives, too. So take a look at what's been most painful and most difficult, and what might that mean for how the Lord is inviting you to...

Austin
Yeah, that's so good. Well, Jeff, thanks again so much for joining us. I think that picture of when God calls us, we need to be open handed. And whether that's joy or pain or suffering or mentoring or caring for loved ones, it's such a beautiful thought. As we move towards retirement or any really any next season of life.
So I really appreciate you coming on with us. Again, if you want to connect with Jeff, you can go to his website. jeffhaanen.com. We'll leave that in the show notes below. But again, Jeff, so, so pleased to have you on.

Jeff
Yeah, thanks for having me, Austin, Spencer, I really appreciate it.

Austin
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Disclosure
This content was provided by Second Half Stewardship. We are in Knoxville, Tennessee and you can visit our website www.secondhalfstewardship.com. The information in this recording is intended for general, educational and informational purposes only, and should not be construed as investment advisory, financial planning, legal, tax, or other professional advice based on your specific situation. Please consult your professional advisor before taking any action based on its contents.