Ep. 059 - Behind the Music & Stories: A Conversation with Andrew Peterson

Episode Transcript

Spencer
Today, we're excited to host singer, songwriter and author Andrew Peterson onto the podcast. Each year, Andrew and a cohort of his friends tell the story of the coming of Jesus through the Behold the Lamb of God tour. And he's the author of the much-beloved Wing Feather series of books. Andrew, welcome.

Andrew
Thank you very much for having me.

Spencer
So 25 years of Behold the Lamb tour this year. It's been such a gifts to so many of us. Can you tell us a bit about the backstory and how you started? Behold the lamb.

Andrew
Yeah. It was early in my music career. I had moved to Nashville from Florida with my wife, and, not long after my first like label album released, I had the idea I was at a, Christmas concert, an Amy Grant Christmas show with my buddy Gabe, and she, you know, she has these great Christmas records.
And so we went to see her at the arena, and it would have been like 1997 or 8, something like that. And it was a great concert. But that was when the idea struck. I was like, what if there was a concert that actually told the story of the incarnation? It wasn't just holiday classics and Christmas carols. It was a storytelling.
And that was the reason that that idea popped into my head. I think, was because having grown up in the church, my dad was a pastor and I grew up just, enmeshed in Christian culture, you know, all the VBS and the Sunday school and the church camp and the whole thing. And somehow back in the 80s, when I was growing up, people didn't talk about the Bible as a story much.
I had never heard that before until I was sitting in Bible college. My Old Testament survey class my freshman year. And the professor connected the dots and showed me that the whole Bible was about Jesus. And so that idea was, what if we were if I grew up in the church and I miss this, there must be a lot of other people who, need to be reminded or need to be taught this thing or whatever.
And so that's struck the idea struck to try to, fashion a cycle of songs that would tell that story. And, and so, yeah, we went out on the road before it was even finished. Like, I hadn't written all the songs yet. The first year of the tour, but I knew that it needed to be a concert that was done in community, you know, it was like then it wouldn't work.
I mean, typically my shows are pretty simple, you know, acoustic shows with a couple of band members who for this, I was like, ooh, this needs to be a grander thing, you know? And so the idea was to invite the community of songwriters that I had in Nashville on the road and to do it all together. And so for whatever reason, it worked.
And, this year, I, I can't believe that it's 25 years. And I, I hope to keep doing it. I don't know if I can do it at the level that I've done it at the pace that I've been doing it, but, but yeah, the beautiful thing to me about it is that, I just turned 50, a couple of weeks ago, and, the story hasn't changed a bit, but I have changed in relation to the story a lot, you know?
And so it's just such a cool thing to have this center of gravity that is the gospel story. And then, as I age and, you know, as I, as we suffer and we become more like Jesus in different ways, and we change and our faith deepens and grows, things are different. And so it's like we're just circling around this multifaceted jewel that every angle, you know, every year we sing it from a slightly different angle and understanding even more how beautiful it really is.
That's how that's how it feels. So I'm very grateful.

Spencer
As you think about this season, that you're, continuing to press into and, and you've got such a beautiful mix of different people that are a part of the tour, you know, and have been for so many years. You know, you've got Andy and Jill that have been doing this, you know, so long with you. And yet you've got some of these guys are Arcadian Wild coming in and others that have been just doing it maybe a few years.
And maybe you're moving into a season where you're a little bit more of an elder statesman, you know, on on the tour, you know? What does, how does that does it change your role at all? Does it change the feel? What can you speak a little bit more about? You know, where you see yourself now?

Andrew
That's a good question. I was just talking to a young songwriter last night about how I don't think of myself as an old guy, but I think I'm an old guy now in music terms like, compared like, my daughter is married and is a touring songwriter. And so it's a, it's like hurts my brain to think about, but yeah, so many of these young people, I could be their father, which is a crazy, but, I well, with behold the Lamb of God, it's fun, the last 3 or 4 years since we released the 20th anniversary version of the album.
And that was kind of what we invited Arcadian Wild and Jess Ray and some of these other, you know, artists to be a part of it, along with the old guard. We locked in to that group of people on the tour, and so it's been it's been this really sweet community that's been on the road.
And I'm such a huge fan of the, the younger, but, everybody obviously, but but Arcadian and Jess and Skye’s been a part of the tour for years. And so the cool thing is, and I probably I'm not supposed to talk about this publicly too much yet, but we're, thinking about, splitting it into two cells and having Jess, head up.
Jess. Ray presents. Behold the Lamb of God. And so that she can invite her younger community into the story and go out on the road with Arcadian Wild and they can do their own version of the show. As us old people slow down a little bit. And, you know, I want to keep doing the show at the Ryman, and hopefully we can all do that together.
But but, you know, I, I foresee a day when I'll do I won't be on the road for all of December. And so for years now I've been wondering, how do how do I steward this away from me? And, if the Lord wants it to continue without me, how does that work, exactly? And I've been racking my brain to figure out, like, get, like, scanning the horizon to see, like, who out there could do it.
And Jess and Arcadian came to me a couple of years ago and were like, hey, what do you think about this idea? And I was like, funny that you should mention it, because I was thinking the same thing. So, so yeah, but I'm not sure how that's going to work exactly. But I'm very hopeful that in the not too distant future, that's going to be a new thing.

Spencer
Well, that's that's so exciting and such a gift. I mean, coming in, hearing Jess for the first time a few years ago, her songs, I mean, immediately brought my wife and I to tears. And then when you came back a couple of years ago, and I think she had gotten sick, and Skye filled in for her, and we were like, oh, well, we're not going to get to hear her.
But then, Skye, her songs were just, like, overwhelmingly good. And yeah, you know, we were like, oh, well, now we've got, you know, new, you know, favorite artists who were younger. So, what a gift. And even in the way the Lord works there. But that's exciting to hear. And what a what a great season to step into.

Andrew
I love it, I'm excited about it.
Yeah. Andrew, you know, you mentioned here a couple minutes ago that every time that you enter the tour, it's almost like you're looking at a diamond or a jewel from a different angle. I would love to hear you talk about that. Expand on that more especially, you know, it's been 25 years. You've had all these different experiences. You've been on tour, you write about in some of your books about being on tour and wrestling with the Lord.

Austin
So how has that been for you as you've walked through these different seasons, continuing to meet Jesus in the incarnation, in the season, even as you've seen it? 25 years ago now?

Andrew
Yeah. Well, what I'm really struck by often is, Oh, man. I mean, I'm trying to think the best way to answer that question that the, a few things come to mind. The first thing is the the community that has kind of locked arms to tell this story together. There's this myth that, I think a lot of young songwriters moved to Nashville, and they're like, man, there's this community.
There’s the Rabbit Room community. Or that, you know, and you get here and then you find out that it's just people, and people are sinners, and, community is really, really difficult. Right. And, churches that way, it's like, you know, if you show up at a church and you're like, I have found the perfect church, then get ready for some disappointment, right?
Like, gear yourself up for the fact that you're going to be disillusioned at some point. We're also broken. And so The Gospel is the only thing that can anchor you. And so I think that with this community of people, there's just the Lord saw fit to have me fall in with this amazing group of people who, have chosen to stick even when it has gotten hard.
You know what I mean? I, I'm not a I can drive people crazy. And so I think that, there have been, you know, really rocky seasons with different members of our community over the years and, I'm so grateful that they have chosen to say “We're going to come back out on the road. We're going to keep doing this because the point is not, how good we are.
The point is how good Jesus is and we're going to keep standing on the stage and celebrating that again.” And so, I think that's that's one way I would put it, is that the community has grown so much that like the fact that we're all standing there on the stage, the audience can't see it, but we can see in our mind's eye the history and the things we've overcome together and the losses and the pain and all the stuff.
And to be able to stand on the stage together and sing this song, these songs about the incarnation, it's just like there's a, perspective that you can only get with time. And I think we have we've crossed some of those thresholds together. And, and then you have real communion, which is a, which is, grace. Right.
It's a mercy. It's like, it's not this like, idyllic, fake world. It's a real world with a bunch of bumps and bruises and, and then...but that's a better version, right? I would rather be known and loved than, than be in some, you know, kind of feaux-community where everybody's kind of stuck with each other.
And, and I think The Gospel gives us permission to do that.

Spencer
Yeah. I was just going to follow up on that. You know, one of the core parts, obviously, of community is those closest to you, you know, Jamie and your kids and, you know, you've been doing this for 25 years and, you know, there's strains that that places on a family that you've talked about, from time to time, just being gone, you know, every December, what does it look like?
What are the things that maybe you or you and Jamie have done together to to try to make sure that, you're preserving, you know, that core community, your family?

Andrew
Yeah.

Spencer
You know, even in the midst of, being gone, you know, most of December?

Andrew
Oh, yeah. Well, it's, you know, it's ended. To be clear, it's not just December. It's like during all the rest of the year, too. And then it just like the cherry on top, sure. And so this is the it's a, it's a life that we chose that has not been easy. It's been so rich and good though, you know.
And so our answer for that two things, Jamie is amazing and has done this incredible job of, supporting and encouraging me, but also, like, we're celebrating our 30th anniversary later this year, and it's becoming clearer and clearer to me that she's the star of the show, that she's the rock star, that when our family is all together, we just kind of marvel at her and what an amazing human being she is.
And, the way she has cultivated, just a, kind of easy closeness, among our children, it's all stuff that, like, I stand in awe of. It's not my gifting. My gifting has been something different. So she's been amazing. And so one of the things that she was really good about was reminding our kids that, when I'm gone, I'm out there working, you know, and that I'm doing it for a reason.
I'm it's because this is what God has called your papa to, and also, he would rather be home. We try to make it very clear to my kids that, like, no matter how great the tour is, I would rather be home with the kids. But this is the thing that we're choosing to do because we believe in it.
So I think that was a good thing. And then the other thing that, I was thinking about, and now I've lost it, this is what happens when you're 50. I had two things, and that was the first thing. Oh, the other thing is really intentional time together. So when the tour is over, we try really hard to, we did a lot of adventures as a family together where we would go off somewhere together and this is our time.
And so we had a lot of meaningful time, on the road or on vacation or meaningful time at home and like, okay, I'm home now for the next month, I'm going to be writing my books or whatever in the morning, but I'm home for dinner every night. And to try to really lean into those times to counterbalance the travel.

Spencer
Yeah. I think we had heard, you talked at one point about January kind of being a no fly zone. You know, after you got back at least some years on the tour, you know, just carving out that space, you know, for family.

Andrew
For sure.

Spencer
So, can you talk a little bit more about just what it what it is, maybe even more broadly to carve out space for sabbatical and rejuvenation in the midst of, you know, kind of the, the intensity of, of what it is to travel, what it is to, you know, have a set of expectations, maybe on you that you're always on in some way when you're, when you're out there doing those kinds of things.
What what does it look like over the years for you to, to pursue, you know, rest and rejuvenation?

Andrew
Yeah. It's been a it's been a tricky one. If you're self-employed, it's really hard to to clock out, right? Yeah. And I, I love my job, and I wouldn't trade it for anything I do. I'm very well suited for it. But I do have sometimes a little bit of envy for the folks who like, clock out at five and they come home and they can watch a Netflix show or whatever, and just their brains are turned off.
And, I do try to do that, but, but it takes discipline. But I would say the, you know, my first quote unquote sabbatical was, I wrote about this in one of the books, that it was because I was at the end of my rope, and I was so tired. I was talking to my counselor and he said, have you ever taken a sabbatical?
And I laughed through my tears. I was like, you know, self-employed singer songwriters don't get sabbaticals. Nobody can give me the time off. And, he was like, well, if you could, you know, take a sabbatical, what would you do with it? And I said, well, I would want to go someplace I've never been with my family. And, so that we could experience something like that, an adventure together.
And so we that bit was the spark or the idea that led us to a two month trip in Sweden and the UK. As a family. And we did this like hippie troubadour like play. The irony is, I played 14 concerts during my sabbatical, but I did it with my family, right? We were on the road in this rental car, taking up love offerings at these churches and had an envelope full of cash that we would use to get to the next town.
And we were staying with, you know, host homes and pastors, whoever would let us crash. And so we had this really sweet adventure together, which leads me to where we are now, which is that, you know, the the I heard, a talk, there was a guy teaching a bunch of pastors on lessons that pastors can learn from, Celtic Christianity.
And, and he said a couple of really interesting things. And one of them was that the, you know, in, the UK and Europe and Ireland or whatever, when you there these monasteries, the ancient monasteries, they're just off in the middle of nowhere in some random valley, you know, and go take these tours and see these places.
Some of them are still living monasteries, you know. But the guy said that one of the reasons that they were so remote was that, the Celtic Christians, these monks would be traveling around looking for the place of their resurrection, which means they were they were looking for the place that they wanted to put their roots down and be buried, because they believed that at the resurrection.
This is what I'm going to see when when I resurrect, I'm going to see these hymns. And isn't that a beautiful thought? But and so the idea that as a Christian, it made me go, okay, wait, what is the place of my resurrection? Where do I want to be buried? Where do I want to put my roots down?
What do I want to first see when when Jesus raises, Right? And that's that's here. That's the Warren. Like, we bought this place 17 years ago. Because I read a Wendell Berry book and decided that I wanted to live a life that that was rooted. And so anything can change. Obviously, like, I don't, my plan, though, is just to stay here and Jamie and I are digging in deep. That said, the other thing that the Celtic Christianity guide taught, talked about was that there were seasons of engagement and disengagement, that a lot of the monks would have a place that they would go retreat to and spend time with the Lord and be
alone and become rejuvenated so that they could then come back with renewed energy to serve their community. And, that just describes perfectly the rhythm that we fell into, which is to go over to England and spend a couple of months of the summer disengaged in a place where, you know, the texts kind of slow down a little bit.
The emails kind of slow down a little bit and, I can be in a place that I find very beautiful, and go to a church where we know a few people, but we're not, you know, it's not the same as Nashville, where it feels like we're always kind of on the go. And so that that's kind of what we've chosen.
And I, it's a very privileged thing to get to do that. I'm very thankful for that. But finding some way of disengaging, being in a different place so that you can come back and love the place that you have even more, is, is the rhythm that we found.

Austin
Yeah. You know Andrew, as I have as I read God of the Garden, I think this theology of place that you develop. And one of the things that you talk about is the next generation, that whoever moves there will get to experience the care that you put into it, and you don't know what it's going to look like or what it's going to be.
How did you get to that place where you're stewarding the land for the next generation? But the next generation is unknown. So holding this intention of we live in an in-between, a liminal space with the Lord of this is our home, but it's not our eternal home, but it's also the place that I want to enter into. Just how do you how did you get to this place of “Stewardship of Place”?

Andrew
Sure. Well, it it I mentioned Wendell Berry earlier. I read a book called Jayber Crow. If you're listening, and you haven't read any Wendell Berry, it's a good place to start. It's a great book. It's not an easy book. It's a it's a big one. There's another one called Hannah Coulter that is maybe an, like, softer entry point, for Wendell Berry, but he, you know, he's this Kentucky farmer who, is a poet and novelist and an essayist who's been trying has been drawing attention to, American culture's disconnection with place for like 50 or 60 years.
Right. And talking about how we're losing something really important, by in the, in this culture where people bounce around as much as they do. And so I read that book and it just named an ache that I had had for most of my life. Like, because I was born in Illinois and grew up in Florida, I never really had a place, you know what I mean?
We always lived in church personages, so we didn't even live in a house that we owned. So, and for whatever reason, that created in me this longing to know where I belong. And so that's part of the reason, when I went to Sweden for the first time, I just loved it is because, like, I was like, oh, this is a place where I know my great grandfather lived here for, and his people were here for hundreds upon hundreds of years.
And so, so in that same sense, I wanted to live in a place that I could love for, for the rest of my life. If it's God's offered to have me stay there. And so, we scanned the horizon and just happened to find this really wonderful little spot that's just outside of Nashville. And so, that began the love affair.
Does that make sense? And so that it's like, the place speaks to you. So it's like we moved here. I think I talked about this in God to the Garden but we moved here. And like the second year we were here, our neighbor having had us over with some, some of their friends and one of those friends is a beekeeper.
And, over dinner, he told me about beekeeping. And, like, within a month, I was wearing a bee suit. And, you know, smoking the bees! And this guy was teaching me how to do the thing. And so it was like the place literally, our neighbor open up this little chamber that I stepped into. And so the land around me began to suggest to me what I should be doing to take care of, you know, the we found an old dried up pond in the woods near our house.
And so the land suggested to me, hey, here's the thing that you could work on. Does that make sense? And now we have a pond. And last night I watched a great heron feeding on the minnows. Right. And so I think that if you stop looking at the, scanning the horizon for, the next best thing, it's not easy.
Like, it's. You have to decide. You have to choose, to take care of the place that you've been given. But that's kind of where it started for me. There's this great poem by, Jeanne Murray Walker. I need to memorize it because I'm always bringing it up with the...It's called...oh, what is it called?!
“Adam’s Choice.” “Adam's Choice” by Jeanne Marie Walker. So Google it if you get a chance, because it's a great poem, but it kind of. She's imagining Adam being a little discontent with Eve, and, And he doesn't like the name she gave the yak. And, and. Yeah, it's this really kind of funny, sweet poem. But then at the end of the poem, she describes, a thunderstorm, and Eve is frightened and is running to Adam, and he holds her in his arms.
And the last line is as he begins the long work of learning to love what he's been given. And that wonderful. And so I think that that's that's the kind of life that I want to live. I want to I want to do the long work of learning to love what I've been given. And, so when you plant a tree, you know, I get to now enjoy trees that I planted 17 years ago.
And they're trees now! They're not little saplings like, I can climb in them. And, so...it’s just a good way to live.

Spencer
Well, and along with that, you're just talking even about naming. And, you know, you talk a fair amount about that in God of the Garden and just what it means to inhabit a place name, you know, the place that you live, name the features of that place, can you talk a little bit more just about, just even that facet of engaging with your place, the, the naming, element?
I mean, that's just so fascinating to my wife and I, as we read that, in the book, what does that done for you and Jamie, your family? You know, as you kind of engage a place?

Andrew
It just means that we take better care of it. I think that when sailors name their boats and they refer to them as a she, it helps them love the thing better. And, it also ascribes a story to the place, right? All of the sudden, it's not just, I don't know. All of the sudden, our place
was not just our place, our place is The Warren. And people refer to it as The Warren. And our kids say, hey, we're going to come to The Warren and for whatever. And it is now entered the story of history in a different way than it did before. And names are, you know, a big part of the Wing Feather Saga, like naming
is a huge part of that, partly because of the spiritual journey I was on when I was writing those books I like. I'm, have struggled with self-loathing. You know, I wrote about that a little bit in the in The God of the Garden, just this my tendency to believe the voices of the enemy over the voices of my Father.
And, and George MacDonald, this friend of mine, Ron Block, who's a banjo player, is a big George MacDonald fan. And he sent me some passages from George MacDonald about, about naming and this idea that, like, you know, Revelation talks about the White Stone with, with the our true name written on it. Our name is written on His hands.
Right. And so, there's something really, important to me about, like when I'm, when I sin, when I do something stupid, I, I have a tendency to go “Man, you’re in idiot.” Like, in my head. I'll, I'll kind of. And then I've learned, I'm learning to balance that out with: “But you are beloved. You a child of the King.
Like, He knows your true name, right? And so, in that same sense, the places we live, they can be loved places. And I think that the naming is a part of love. Right? Yeah. It's a last minute thought that just popped into my head. There's this great guy named Travis, and I'm blanking on his last name, but he lives in West Virginia, and he hosts this, writer's, conference called Hope Words Writers’ Conference in Virginia, uh, West Virginia.
And he loves West Virginia, which is, you know, pretty, pretty broken place in America, right. And he's just dug in and he's like, saying, oh, we're going to like, celebrate the writers that have come from here and begin to cultivate art and beauty in these places. And, he pointed out at this lecture that I heard him do, that the Hebrew, I think, is the Hebrew word, not the Greek word, but the Hebrew word for a city that has been destroyed is the same word that, in Scripture for a widow.
So when a woman has lost her husband, it's like when a city has lost its people and he points out this idea, like, the correlation is, in the same way that we're called to care for widows and orphans; He's like, we are also called to care for widowed cities, places that have been broken and abandoned.
And, and we are called in the image of God to breathe new life into those places and to participate in the resurrection of those places, as a foretaste of the New Creation.

Spencer
Wow, wow. It's really interesting to hear just some of the background even sounds like of the Wing Feather Saga and what you were processing in terms of name and significance there. One of the things that Austin and I have talked about, a fair amount, together is just how powerful that theme of redemption is that runs through the wing feather, saga.
And just this idea, you know, love to hear you talk more about how you come up with this idea that you've got the antagonist, the fangs being melded people and animals, and they need to sing this song and they're named in a different way. I mean, you know, can you talk about just how that idea came into being?
I mean, it's so powerful. You know, it's,

Andrew
Thank you. I'm glad that it resonates with you. I don't know, to be honest. I was just writing a story, and these ideas popped into my head while I was going, and, it wasn't until later, in a lot of cases that I was like, oh, I can see, like a little bit of a reflection of what I was dealing with when I was writing this, this story.
But I wasn't trying to do that. I was just sitting down trying to write the best story I could. And a lot of that just came from, you know, the fanging and the melding and all that kind of stuff was like, just playing in the sandbox, you know? When I was writing the first few chapters of the book, I was very aware that if you're writing fantasy, you have to write back story because you you have to know the rules of the world that you live in.
You can't just have a villain without knowing something about why the villain has a villain, right? You got to figure it out. So there are these documents on my computer where I was trying to get to the bottom of: Why is Gnag The Nameless called Gnag The Nameless? Why are the Fangs of Dang, why are they destroying the world?
What's their, motive here? Right. And so I had to figure those things out. And in that process, I was like, “Oh, what if this?” and “What if that?” And, and I did want to, like, convey the idea that music has this power, and in the Wingfeather Saga, songs can heal and they also thwart the enemy.
And that is not a metaphor in my experience. Like I've experienced that in our world, in a very real way. That is not, like, scientifically explainable. Songs have changed my life, and I have seen songs. You know, one of my favorite things about songwriting is that they, 3.5 minutes can change your whole life. It's amazing to me.
Like, I have, you know, sometimes sit on the stage of the Christmas show and some of the other writers are performing their solo songs, and I'll pick an audience member and secretly watch their face as the song washes over them. And I can see them move from, you know, casually disinterested to actually crying in the space of three minutes and like, there's very few art forms that are that acute, you know, and so, I am fascinated by it.
So I really wanted that to be a part of the story. So, you know, early on in the books, I had this picture in my mind of Leeli in book four. I'm standing on the roof of the building and singing. And her song was the thing that was more than anything else, holding the enemy at bay.
And it took four books to get to that scene. A lot of those, those ideas, sparks came early on in the process, and it just took me a long time to figure out why.

Spencer
Yeah. Wow. So secretly, you were trying to make every parent cry when we read these books for our kids. So that was one, you know?

Andrew
Yes, absolutely.

Spencer
Just asking for a friend, asking for a friend. You know?

Andrew
I was talking to a dad the other day who just started reading. I think he's on book two. And, he was like, “Yeah, thanks a lot for making me cry in front of my kids.” Which is a huge compliment! I'm so thankful. And I said, “Well, wait till the end of book three, because that one was like, like handcrafted for dads to weep openly in front of their kids.”
Like it was like what I was doing. I mean, I was crying while I was writing it because I, I was resonating deeply with Esben...I just dropped a spoiler accidentally. But anyway, the, goal is to somehow get to the heart of the reader, and, and I don't always know how that works.
I think the story does it in its own way. I just got, I hate, I probably shouldn't mention this. It’s a little embarrassing, I guess. Anyway, I got an email. Not embarrassing. Like, I don't want to toot my own horn, but I got this wonderful email a couple days ago from a guy whose dad had been, like, very antagonistic to Christianity for, his whole life.
And this guy's a pastor, and he's been praying for his dad, and he sent this email saying that the dad read the Wing Feather Saga, and gave up fighting. And it was the the scene that he described the Holy Spirit using in the books to kind of, like he said, break his heart wide open was not a scene I ever would have thought would have done that, you know, I didn't you can't predict these things.
But my favorite line and it was the, the dad, he said that his dad now says that God saved me through a story for little kids, quote-unquote He says that he says it sheepishly and joyfully. And I just like I read it to my wife, and we both sat there crying, because that is so clearly not me, right?
It's so clearly not the author of the books going, I'm going to write a scene that's going to make somebody become a Christian one day. Yeah. You can't you can't do it like that, right? You just have to be obedient and write the story as best as you can, and then you get the joy of watching God use it however he wants.
It is a great, great thing.

Austin
Well, I think the beautiful thing, even just in that story is I think about Jesus as he's speaking to the people and saying like, come like little children. And what this fantasy story does, is it? I think it unravels some of those layers of what do I need to be? And it allows each of us to enter into the life of one of the characters and see both the brokenness and the beauty, and we can come at it like little children, like, what a beautiful way to to read and to see it.
And so, yeah, the stories my kids are often like, dad, why are you stopping reading? And I'm like, “I'm sobbing, I can't stop! You can't help it?” So yeah, thanks for it. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. It's such a neat email to get.

Spencer
Yeah. I'm, our nine year old, our youngest, a four. I'm reading “On The Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness” to him. And I know book three is ahead of me. And the other kids have all been like that. Are you okay? You know, about ten times through that book. So, so it's such a gift.
So can you talk a little bit just about, what's been like you've, you've started to adapt this or you've been in the process obviously for a number of years adapting, what you've written and these amazing stories to the screen. And, what's that process been like? How has it been stewarding that whole journey visually?

Andrew
It has been amazing. It has been, I mean, Jamie and I pinch each other all the time. Like, we can't believe that your goal as a songwriter, like, the older you get is to, put your own, like, you want the song to to break off and become its own thing. Apart from you. It's like giving birth to the thing.
And if, and every now and then you write a song that is so that is better than you can do, and it sits out there apart from you, and you can just be thankful when that happens. “Is He Worthy?’ Is that way. Like, I wrote the song? “Is He Worthy?” and it was covered by people, and it doesn't feel like a song that I wrote anymore.
It's out there in the world. It's like it's the kid grew up and got a job and and left, you know, left home. And it's just a joy when that happens. And so that's kind of what it's been like for the Wingfeather animated series. Is that the kids now, who watch this show aren't thinking that Andrew Peterson wrote this story.
They're just lost in the world of Jana and Tink and Lily, and they're and it's in the same way that, like, when we were kids, we didn't think about, you know, and this is not me comparing myself to George Lucas, but we didn't think about George Lucas having written star Wars. We were playing with our store Star Wars figures because this world was one that we wanted to play in.
Right. And so to get the thrill of seeing that happen, you know, now that the TV shows out in the world is just amazing, but and it's been really difficult. It's TV shows cost a lot of money. And, it's a, it's it's a really complicated process that I just stand in awe of Chris Wall and the team and their ability to make it all happen.
I'm, I'm involved in story stuff, and, as soon as they start talking budget stuff, I just. I just want to die on the inside. I'm not good at math. But the plain fact is, it's like we're at it. At its peak, it's about 90 employees. But to make an animated series, it's crazy. And not just employees, but the people who are at the top of their game.
You know, like people who used to work at Disney and Pixar working on these things. And so it's it's you can't make it for free. You can't you can't just do it. So figuring out a way to, you know, we partner with Angel Studios and finding ways to get it out into the world that monetizes it so that we can keep making it has proven to be.
I mean, it's a challenge, but it's also one that I'm not too worried about. Like, I see like it's like when we finished watching season two, Jamie and I just looked at each other like, it has to keep going. Like we have to keep the season seven. And so I'm very excited about, the future and what's going to happen.
So, but it's it's a great joy. And I love being what, being able to experience it kind of objectively. Like, I'm just one of the many people in the room. And so it almost feels like it's not my story anymore in the best way.

Spencer
Yeah. Along the way, you know, I can't remember which book it was that you mentioned this, but, you know, you kind of picked up one of the reasons that you picked up writing. You know, the Wingfeather Saga was because, you know, you needed to put food on the table for the family, you know, and, and people moved to Nashville.
They become musicians. They have a realtor's license. They do other kinds of things, you know, to be able to supplement income in different seasons. And so, you know, obviously you've got these books that, now they've, they've got this, wide appeal and have had a tremendous impact. Were there any points along the way, maybe after you had published the first, you know, book or first couple of was there ever a point where you said, I'm not sure I can do it.
I'm not sure I can get to the end of this.”? I'm just curious, you know, now it's a roaring success and, you know, it's had so much impact. But I'm sure along the way there must have been points where you're just like, “Oh my gosh, this is a struggle.”
What was what was it like? You know, where there were there their moments of that or can you speak to that?

Andrew
Yeah. I mean, one of the big ones was when, the publisher of the first two books opted to to not publish the rest of it. And I was, you know, and my music career was kind of the same way. So it's weird. I think, it didn't feel like it was a successful career while it was happening.
It just felt like we were just clawing our way, you know, to try to get to the next show and to get to the next season. And, there are many years where the Christmas tour is the only thing that that got us through the year. It was like, you know, we would we would make it financially to the Christmas tour.
We knew that that would do okay, because it was. they’re bigger shows. And then we would have January with a little bit of money in the bank, and then taxes would come and take it all. And so it was like this.. and then the cycle would start again. It's like, “Well, I guess I got to go on the road,
I guess I got to work on my books again.” You know? And so it was just this long, but it was also rooted in a strong sense that this was what God had called me to do. He had asked me to do this thing, and, I was just going to keep doing it as long as I could.
And, I couldn't really imagine any other thing, that I'm doing. And so, so, yeah, so I remember I got, you know, dropped from my first record deal and, and feeling, you know, the punch in the gut, you know, all the things that come with that. It's not just like, “Oh, boy, this is going to make it harder to provide for my family” or
“Oh, no, I, you know, there was a conference room.” That is what I thought was, “Well, there was a conference room meeting at a in a building in Nashville, where they all talked about me and decided that I wasn't worth their investment anymore.” You know, that's a really sad way to put it. But that's how it felt when I was 25 or 30 or whenever it was like, “Oh, man, I guess it isn't working.”
But by God's grace, I was in the process of making the Behold the Lamb of God record when that happened. And I was like, well, I guess we'll just keep going, find a way, call somebody with money to help pay for this, and keep coming up with ways tokeep the ball rolling, because we at no point did we have a sense that, when my head was clear, I didn't have a sense that I was on the wrong track, you know? If I if I felt, disillusioned by somebody else's decision about my, my music or whatever, I would then turn to my community and say, “This hurt.
I don't know what to do with this. What do I do?” And if your community is saying, “Keep writing music, keep telling your stories, we’ll help you,” Then that means, that's how you can kind of discern whether or not a closed door is God saying no? Or, this is a door that you're supposed to kick down, you know what I mean?
And so, once again, I'm so thankful that I was a part of a community of people who were not who are way less worried about how many records I had sold and way more interested in the writing life and, like, what it means to be a member of a community who's a Christian, who's been given a gift, who's called to share these things, you know, for God's glory.
So, you know, with the Wingfeather booksm, it was, after book two, got the call that they were not going to renew the contract that I, I was like, “Here we are again. I can't believe this has happened the second time.” And, I felt really sad about it. But then I washed my face and said, “Okay, I'm going to keep writing.”
And it worked out better than I could have ever dreamed. Like in both situations, like the fact that the path that I was kind of pushed on to, it was a far better path than the one that I was on.

Spencer
That's just so special to hear the way the Lord worked through that. I mean, I just listened to ‘Just As I Am” for the 500th time, you know, last week and cried and, you know, it's just like, I mean, even, you know, hearing you walk through that process of like, okay, Watershed says “We're not going to renew after Love and Thunder.”
And yet, you know, for many of us, just like that, that album was fantastic. It was, you know, it was so impactful. And yet it wasn't the commercial success yet, The Lord had something else. So, it's beautiful to hear-

Andrew
Something so much better.

Spencer
Yeah. And just hear that that's one of the, one of the ways that you got connected then to write and, and, you know, the books and those kinds of things.

Austin
Yeah Spencer, as you were talking there and even Andrew, as you were thinking, I've heard you say in the past that “The obedience is a big piece. It's not about success or failure. My obedience to my call to the Lord.” So can you talk to that just briefly before we end here? I would love to hear what is that meant for you as you've walked through this, you have been called by God to be a singer songwriter, to be a writer, to foster this community, a Rabbit Room.
How is how is obedience played a role in that?

Andrew
Oh man, the best answer I can think of, well, it's the only real thing that we have any control over in our lives. And you can just, you choose to obey or you choose not to. And, you know, I don't always choose to obey. You know, I still make dumb choices all the time. But hopefully, you know, you make these tiny steps that in time, you can look back and you can see that God has been faithful.
And that means He’s been, trying to cling to Him as your Good Shepherd, you know? So, I don't know. I don't want to make it sound like a legalistic kind of obedience. Like, you've got to: “You'd better obey, young man.” But we're always presented with a choice, you know, you have agency, and, that is that choice seems to be very precious to God that, you know, He, it comes and cost Him, the Cross was the cost of this choice that we've been given.
And so and every moment we can choose, to say yes to the Gospel and to to sit at, pull our chair up at the table where our cup is overflowing. Or we can, you know, like C.S. Lewis said, make mud pies in an alley because we can't imagine, what it means to have a holiday at sea, you know?
And so I, I think that, you know, I, I feel, I guess, self-conscious talking about it in that way because I just as soon as you said that, I just thought about all the ways that I haven't been obedient lately. But I guess at the same time, when, the thing that pops into my head is this great Wendell Berry poem where he talks about his wife and how, when he married her, he was choosing to give her the love that he had for all other women.
And that I'm going to make this choice to love you with that love, no matter how hard it gets. And so in that sense, I think, I've, I've thought back to when I was 18 years old or whatever, and I was at this youth conference, like you would, you know, like we kind of had this cynic in us can roll our eyes out and be like, oh, well, remember that there was an altar call and I did the whatever, but I remember going down front and committing my life to the ministry when I was 18 years old, at this at this youth conference.
And I think that I just when I have, Been frustrated or lost or whatever, I just go: :Unless God, you know, absolutely makes it clear to me that I'm not supposed to do that, that's the thing that I sign up for.” Right? And so, in some way or another, I just want to be obedient to that.
And another another thing that pops into my head is that, I have, for many years tried to seek out older friends. I really value my friendships with older folks, because they remind me of what's really important. And so, and what is really important is, a life in Christ that is, kind of surrendered to His good
pleasure, whatever that may look like. So I'm nervous anytime I start talking about stuff like this because I'm like, “Oh, man, He’s going to make me put my money where my mouth is tomorrow,” and I get nervous of that! But that's also a result of my, kind of legalistic upbringing where it's almost like we're I'm afraid of God.
I'm afraid. It's like, “Why am I still so afraid that He's going to give me something that isn't good for me?” Like, I know what comes from His hand is going to be good for me.. It's. And so, I'm doing my best to choose that in small ways.

Spencer
Well, thank thanks so much. Just for your reflections and just, sharing about, Wingfeather, about Behold the Lamb, about your journey as a steward, it blessed us and so many others. And, so we'll look forward to being able to, share this with, with many people.

Andrew
Thanks, Spencer. Thanks. Awesome. Appreciate you guys very much.

Austin
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Disclaimer
This content was provided by Second Half Stewardship. We are in Knoxville, Tennessee and you can visit our website at second Half stewardship.com. The information in this recording is intended for general, educational and informational purposes only, and should not be construed as investment advisory, financial planning, legal, tax, or other professional advice based on your specific situation. Please consult your professional advisor before taking any action based on its contents.